Russia blocks port city as deadline looms

1. Georgia is not inside Russia's borders.

2. USA should not have invaded Iraq same way Russia should not have invaded Georgia.

3. 1500 to 2000 ppl killed the Russians saying, was propaganda Putin disseminated so as to try justify the Russian power-grab.

4. Russians have now recently admitted to just over a hundred killed when Georgia attempted to re-take S. Ossetia from it's Russian-supplied Separatists.

5. I'm sure that the Russians have killed as much by their invading Georgia , if not more. And let's not forget the immensely-greater death toll when Russia fought it's own Chechen separatists a decade or so ago. To keep Chechnya within the Russian Federation by force.

6. And lastly, Russia has been actively supplying, encouraging and wholesale-issuing Russian passports/citizenships to minority groups and separatists in Georgia, Ukraine and other ex-Soviet republics turned independent nations, so as to have a future excuse/plan to invade and annex parts or all of their former empire , that are now independent.

= just goes to show that Putin will always be a Spymaster and master-strategist. And also shows that our Bumbler-in-Chief sure misread Putin's soul, when he looked into his eyes , years ago.

4 votes

#1.4 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:17 PM EDT

bry33

No Georgia is not inside Russia's borders, very astute. That means Russia doesn't have a right to be concerned with what happens at their border (outside not inside) as every other nation does? Russia should not have invaded Georgia same way as Georgia should not have invaded S. Ossetia. Actually most of S. Ossetia identifies with being part of N. Ossetia, in Russia, more than being part of Georgia.

It's not about trying to portay Russia as the good guys, which they aren't, but acknowledging that they will react in the same way as other nations, especially the US, when they see outside threats to their security.

#1.5 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:37 PM EDT

Seeing that S.Ossetians feel aligned to N. Ossetia, then how would Russia like it if the Georgians for years, had supplied N. Ossetian separatists with arms to fight the Russians? And also issued the N. Ossetians with Georgian passports??

= Just because you are a big power, does not make your actions right, and such actions should be condemned.

Russian leaders before Putin, demarcated the Georgian/Russian border, so Putin now needs to respect that border.

And sure Russia has a right to be concerned about what happens on it's borders like any other nation and great power.

But Russia's neighbors with only the possible exception of the Dictatorship in Belarus, all see Russia as a big bully of a Bear, that only cares about gobbling up it's neighbours and dominating the world down the line.

Russia is no Benevolent USA, and russia's neighbours know this and hate/fear Moscow.

Why do you think most of Russia's neighbors,( who happened to have recently been one with Russia, having been violently gobbled up in centuries past), are now all clamoring and begging to be let into NATO and the EU? = institutions that are stronger than the big bad cruel bear, huh?

#1.6 - Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:53 AM EDT

http://web.archive.org/web/20061128192630/http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/13/sossetia.independence.ap/index.html

On November 12, 2006 South Ossetia held an independence referendum. The 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%. The referendum was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from Germany, Austria, Poland, Sweden and other countries at 78 polling stations.

Georgians themselves are suffering under Saakishvilli totalitarian rule. Many of them were hoping Russia will overthrow him.

#1.7 - Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:52 AM EDT

U need to expand your sources, jjgate. Because most Georgians, even the many political enemies of Saakashvili, have rallied around Saakashvilli in support of him , and opposition of Putin.
Otherwise the Georgian military made up of Georgians, would have kicked him out of power when the Russians invaded, dont you think? And which is what Putin was hoping to see happen.

And i'm certain that if u could hold free independent elections in many russian republics that are still part of the Russian federation, like Chechnya, that u will also find that many want to be independent from Moscow.

There are other options for the S. Ossetians such as AUTONOMY.
And why on earth would Georgia give up a huge chunk of it's north-central territory, enabling it's enemy Russia to annex S. Ossetia (Putin's goal), and therefore permanently bringing the Russian military into the HEART of Georgia and only a few miles in reach of Tbilisi, the Georgian capital?

And California, for example, going by your argument, is going to be or already majority Mexican Hispanic.
So if Hispanic Californians push thru a referendum that calls for re-unification with Mexico, or independence from the USA, would you or our government respect that referendum???

Stop being ridiculous.

2 votes

#1.8 - Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:50 PM EDT

http://www.newsweek.com/id/152353

"U need to expand your sources" - May I ask what expanded sources do you have in mind? I assume you do look at expanded sources, could you, please, share them? I hope it is more then mainstream US and British media. I hope you cared enough to hear this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBRl-BvKJII

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26336743/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMhq7CfMuWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3IuSLALxSw&feature=related

..but let me guess, you are going to dismiss it as Russian propaganda? Of course CNN and other media outlets in US speak an absolute truth. Just like they did in in run-up to Iraq war.

"Otherwise the Georgian military made up of Georgians, would have kicked him out of power when the Russians invaded, don't you think? And which is what Putin was hoping to see happen."
Many Georgians are simply scared of Saakishvilli. Saakashvili runs his country like a mafia capo runs his district. Bad things just seem to keep happening to his political opponents. They die mysterious deaths; they are beaten up by mysterious masked men carrying machine guns; they are arrested on trumped-up charges and sent to prison. I know this because I have relatives both in South Ossetia and Tbilisi. To support this information I can only offer a link to Wikipedia article on Saakishvilli, the articles critical to Georgian president are hard to find in Western media.

read Criticism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikheil_Saakashvili

In November 2007, the opposition to Saakashvili's government began to unify. Protests were called around the country. The largest was held in front of the parliament in Tbilisi. After the first day, in which 50,000 - 100,000 people turned up, a smaller number, still numbering into the thousands, remained to conduct an ongoing protest action.

On November 7 riot police wearing masks and using batons and tear gas were sent into to disperse the protesters.

At the same time, masked special forces police carrying machine guns raided the television state Imedi which had broadcast material critical of Saakashvili's government. Staff were clubbed into submission by uniformed thugs and managed to broadcast a breathless account of what was happening in the final moments before they were taken off the air. Saakashvili claimed that the television station was involved in Russian-orchestrated attempts to subvert his government. This seems especially ludicrous when you consider that the television station was majority-owned by Rupert Murdoch.

In October 2007, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Penal Reform International issued a joint report, condemning Georgia for continued use of torture in its detention centres.

"why on earth would Georgia give up a huge chunk of it's north-central territory?" Why did Serbia had to give away Kosovo?

2 votes

#1.9 - Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:06 PM EDT

Ok, let me get this str8 , u are using wikipedia as one of your source documents???

And criticizing Saakashvilli running his country sometimes like a mafioso?

So has Putin been running Russia more democratically?
And has Saakashvilli been poisoning his opponents in foreign countries or even foreign heads off state like the Ukrainian president that Putin horribly disfigured in an attempt to poison him???

And for the last time, in almost every country, you have minority ethnic groups. In EVERY African country, you have ethnic groups who live in 2 or more different african nations.
So do you now want a precedent set again where all minorities who want their own nation carved out of an existing nation, can hold referanda and have their wishes granted???

How about American Indians or Afro-Americans getting a few states each for their independent country? Huh?

Or how about Americans of Italian descent getting their own states to live in and go independent?
And Irish descended Americans getting their own slice of the USA as large percentage-wise as their slice of the population?

Sure none of our countless ethnic minorities has held their independence referandums, But, supposed some or all did???

Your support of Russia driving a wedge between Georgia's ethnic minority Ossetians, and attempts to make them independent are a direct throwback to big Power Imperialist and Colonial days when big nations decided the fate of other weaker nations and ethnic groups and who lived where and in what borders.
Which is why no single African nation contains one single harmonious tribe.

What you are advocating my friend, is a throwback and recipe for anarchy on a global scale.

And Russia is not acting in the interest of the Caucasus's minority ethnic groups.
Russia is acting SOLELY because Putin hates the foreign policies of the democratically-elected pro-Western Saakashvilli.

BTW, b4 the latest conflict, the population of S. Ossetia was 30% Georgian, and 65% Ossetian.

It's TOTAL population of South Ossetia was approx 100,000.
The total population of all Georgia is approx 4,662,000.

So you are also advocating that 65,000 people should be able to dictate to 4,500,000 of the rest of the population, that they should get a HUGE slice of the Georgian nation's heartland as their own independent nation.

Now, does that not seem like a LUDICROUS Insane idea to you?

Would you as a Georgian, support such an outcome, ever???

The Abkhazs of Abkhazia, also control a huge swath of rural Georgian territory, but their demographic numbers is a drop in the pool of the overall national population.

= Georgia will never accept S. Ossetia or Abkhazia being permanently carved out of their territory, ok hon.
The same way we wont stand for any American ethnic minority or white European-ethnic group carving out a quarter of the USA for their own national state.

Just check your emotions at the door, and use your common sense.

#1.10 - Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:30 PM EDT

Actually, you are right. Lets give South Ossetia and Abkhazia back to Georgia, and Georgia back To Russia, along with half a dozen other republics: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Byelorussia, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kirgizia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldavia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, and Uzbekistan.. Don't forget about giving Kosovo back to Serbia!

2 votes

#1.11 - Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:53 PM EDT

Well, why did you stop there?

Why didn't you say give back Poland, Hungary, heck, all of Eastern Europe, to the Russian Bear???

My point my Slow Friend, is that you cant grant a country Independence, and then attempt to take it back just because your administration has now changed, or because you dont like the policies of the government of the now independent country. Which is exactly what Putin is trying to do.

And you forget that Putin is doing the same thing in some of those countries that you named, as he did in Georgia = issuing minority ethnic groups or separatists with Russian passports/citizenships.

Future flashpoints, like S. Ossetia and Abkhazia, are Sevastopol and all of the Crimea, and eastern Ukraine, where many ethnic Russians live, or where Putin wants to retain Russian naval bases that are on Ukrainian soil.

Why did you think he poisoned Ukraine's pro-Western president, for example?

Bottomline is = Russia wants back it's empire, or at least wants back Influence over it's old empire. But no one wants back Russia.

And you need to stop being a hypocrite = if u are for Georgia giving up S. Ossetia and Abkhazia in accordance with Russia's wishes, then why are you not for Russia giving up North Ossetia and Chechnya? Huh?

And suppose Britain decides that she wants back ALL her colonies, then will you be for South Africa, Nigeria, India, the USA, Ireland etc etc etc etc etc, ALL returning to the British Fold???

#1.12 - Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:51 PM EDT

Ya but who is going to want to align themselves with Russia? I dont think there will be another cold war. Besides Russia's technology is 20 years behind. They wont be able to catch up. It is just a completely different world now. Russia will either just pull back and try to go the political route, or they will keep trying to invade countries and use force and ultimately be drawn into a confrontation with the west.

1 vote

#2 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:14 AM EDT

gottacomeupwithanickname

Technology does not always gaurantee a victory. A running man could slit one-hundred throats in the dead of the night. There will be another war, another world war. Russia is not mean old bully, they are a country of people that must compy with the government. Our military is voluntary, their's is mandatory, so you can see where they may outnumber us in soldiers on the ground. They are harsh, and ruthless warriors, we fight by the rules, they do not, and in the kind of war that may be fought there are no rules. Wars are only truly won when one side is totally defeated to a point where they can offer no more resistance, not when the governments decide it is a stalemate or statistically it is loss, so they sign a peace agreement or cease fire, to me that is just a post-ponement of the war until it becomes possible for the war to continue. Few wars have ever truly been won, they have just been halted, also notice that when one war ends another begins. We fought with the British to defeat the Nazis and Russia fought from the East we met in Berlin and split Germany in two pieces. If we had fought the Russians out of Germany then, while we were already there, we may have totally avoided the Cold War, they would not have had time to develop Nuclear weapons and all of this catastrophe could have been avoided if we had only finished what we had started. Gen. Patton was probably right about not trusting the Russians. Now who is to say that fighting them at that time may have resulted in a much worse situation today, well that could be true as well, but here we are today. I feel like Russia, China, and North Korea are in league together, and that some day we along with rest of the World will have to either truce with them or fight another war to keep our sovereignty.

4 votes

#2.1 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:54 PM EDT

China does not like Russia, there is a lot of bad blood there. N Korea cant even feed its people. We can destroy all of Russias satellites in orbit, we can destroy their tanks from afar with a laser mounted on a plane, we can disrupt their radio communications and make them essentially blind. The US hasnt been in a total war since WW2. Russia doesnt want to see the US in total war against it in the 21st century.

5 votes

#2.2 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:18 PM EDT

We can destroy all of Russias satellites in orbit, we can destroy their tanks from afar with a laser mounted on a plane, we can disrupt their radio communications and make them essentially blind.

Lol, looks like somebody watched too many James Bond movies :)

4 votes

#2.3 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:32 PM EDT

Or maybe someone just keeps up on military technology....and these are things the US makes public, who knows what they are not.

3 votes

#2.4 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:37 PM EDT

TED C.

What makes you think that they cannot do the same to us? They have'nt revealed their latest and best armaments, and neither have we. To speak like you is to speak without any knowledge whatsoever, aside from typical blah,blah,blah and more blah!

3 votes

#2.5 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:38 PM EDT

Ya, maybe you are right. Maybe they just use technology and equipment built the 70s as a ruse. Maybe the US didn't have to spend billions of dollars after the USSR collapse to help Russia secure its nuclear stockpile. Ha, and you say I speak without knowledge. Get out of your protest tree and read a book.

3 votes

#2.6 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:53 PM EDT

Or maybe someone just keeps up on military technology

Are you seriously suggesting that the US military possesses anti tank laser weaponry (not even mentioning the kind that can be mounted on an airplane)? Do you understand how much energy is required to power such weapon? Why would you even use lasers, when conventional weapons would do the job much better? Anyway, thanks for a good laugh :)

1 vote

#2.7 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:54 PM EDT

Go check the news. The US air force successfully tested a prototype. Why use lasers? You can fire a laser from a lot farther away as long as you have a line of sight and you don't have to wait for the projectile to reach its target (maybe you didn't know this, but light travels pretty fast).

3 votes

#2.8 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:01 PM EDT

Please post a link with news about a laser mounted on an airplane that successfully destroys a tank. Very funny stuff :)

#2.9 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:34 PM EDT

ZeroC

wwwdotdefense-updatedotcomslashproductsslashaslashatldothtm

2 votes

#2.10 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:58 PM EDT

SuperSapien

Ya but who is going to want to align themselves with Russia?

Someone who hates America even more. Never underestimate the tried and standard truth "The enemy of my enemy is my friend'

This thing is going to turn into one big nasty horrorshow.

5 votes

#2.11 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:24 PM EDT

Canudigit - your statement is so FAR WRONG its rediculous - many many times in history (especially our history as in Vietnam) a weaker country can beat a stronger country especially when the hearts and minds are into it... Vietnam had the right on their side and they would NEVER have given up fighting....

Okay, so USA has 40,000 nukes - we ARENT going to use them and no matter how sophisticated our weapons are to even CONSIDER GOING TO WAR WITH RUSSIA is a no win situation for the USA - they can play tactics with us that leaves our oh-so-sophisticated weapons totally null and void....

See, this is what the repubs want you to believe, but repubs dont take into effect the hearts and minds of opponents intent on defending what they believe in... fighting Russia will be no CAKE-WALK at all... and its stupid to even consider sticking our heads into their affairs over there... how would we like Russia sticking their heads into our affairs over here should be decide to invade Mexico...

4 votes

#2.12 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:32 PM EDT

wwwdotdefense-updatedotcomslashproductsslashaslashatldothtm

Although the technology is impressive (potentially), all of those are just prototypes that haven't even been properly tested.

#2.13 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:40 PM EDT

First off, look at casualty counts of US losses vs Vietnamese losses in that war and tell me who lost more. Russia fighting the US is a far different story than a proxy war against communism in vietnam. Ever hear of google?

Sure this and many other advanced weapons are in prototype stage but you can bet if a war were to break out these weapons would be battle ready in a short amount of time. If you think technology is useless in war tell that to Saddam Hussein.

The point is Russia doesn't want a war, and US doesnt want a war, this is all just politcal bickering, both sides know there will be no war. They have too much to lose as do we.

3 votes

#2.14 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:02 PM EDT

Sure this and many other advanced weapons are in prototype stage but you can bet if a war were to break out these weapons would be battle ready in a short amount of time. If you think technology is useless in war tell that to Saddam Hussein.

Oh absolutely, who has the technology has the upper hand. But the way you pictured the whole thing, reminded me of some Hollywood movies :)

The point is Russia doesn't want a war, and US doesnt want a war, this is all just politcal bickering, both sides know there will be no war. They have too much to lose as do we.

I really hope that's the case here.

2 votes

#2.15 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:29 PM EDT

gottacomeupwithanickname

For someone harping about reading a book, you sure are an idiot. I guess you got your information from google and wikipedia. As far as getting out of a protest tree, well I think you fell out of your tree and hit every limb on the way down! Why don't you cite some resources for all of this interesting military technology that the rest of us outside of the science fiction community have not heard of. Oh didn't you know NASA developed a Warp Drive, so now we can travel to lala land out near Alpha Centari where you came from in less than 2 years.......

#2.16 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:07 PM EDT

gottawhateveryourretardednameis,

Do some research of your own before you hurl insults. Oh no, wait, you're right, just because YOU have never heard of something it must NOT exist! Warp drive? twatever.

2 votes

#2.17 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:20 AM EDT

Canadian-416599

canudigit

You should rethink your comments about hurling insults. Seeing as you've stooped to thier level by calling gottacomeupwithanickname retarded.

What are you in grade school? or just an immature fool?

#2.18 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:30 AM EDT

Canadian-416599

canudigit

You should rethink your hurling insults comments. Seeing as you've stooped to thier level by calling gottacomeupwithanickname retarded.

What are you in grade school? or just an ignorant fool?

#2.19 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:32 AM EDT

liquorupDeleted

"What are you in grade school? or just an ignorant fool?"

You're right, I did stoop to their level, oh and it looks like you just did too. That post went too far, nothing but absolute nonsense, talking about warp drive. This isn't an encyclopedia and i dont have to cite resouces. I tried to post links and the forum doesn't allow it.

The point is Russia knows the US has far superior technology and they know they couldn't win in an open war. Which is exactly why they aren't going to provoke one, and that is exactly why there isn't going to be this WWIII that everyone keeps talking about.

liquorup, of course these tests are done with unknown variables known, that is how you conduct testing for almost any kind of engineering project. Once you satisfy that then you move on having unknowns. The bottom line is that the US is developing advanced military technology. And this technology is so advanced that most people on this forum thought it was sci fi until they looked it up.

2 votes

#2.21 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:47 AM EDT

Advocate4Liberty

The U.S. is light years ahead of Iraq and Afghanistan in both technology AND resources. Just as we had the advantage in Vietnam.

And as far as resources, Russia and China are essentially bankrolling our current misadventures. Both hold enough U.S. debt to bankrupt the country were they to dump their dollar holdings and cease purchasing more debt.

We would then be trying to catch up to Zimbabwe's standard of living for decades, if ever.

#2.22 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:42 PM EDT

gottacomeupwithanickname

That's okay rant all you want, when the war comes and I get drafted, I will be there to fight for our country, will you? CANUDIGIT?

#2.23 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:29 PM EDT

Relax gotta, it is only a forum. Save your patriotism for November, no matter who you vote for. You act as if I am in support of war, on the contrary i am not. In fact my entire thread here has been about why there won't be a war.

1 vote

#2.24 - Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:30 AM EDT

Advocate4Liberty

whatevernickname you choose, slave armies called you be there, youngster. I did my stretch with USMC '75 - '79. If one of my kids told me they wanted to join, I'd have to beat some sense into them. No worries, though - they're both WAY to smart for that, even the 7-year old. Plus, they both possess a conscience.

#2.25 - Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:12 AM EDT

T Bourlon

I could be wrong, but this looks like Korea all over again. It appears that Russia is not going to pull out of Georgia, but are instead fortifying their "zone" in order to keep what they have taken. By leaving part of Georgia "free," they can claim they are not occupying the country when in fact they are. We need to gear up for a "radio free Georgia," but also we need to use whatever economic leverage we can to get the Russians to completely leave. They truly aren't the same country they used to be, they want to make money just like everyone else in Europe. We can still accomplish this without firing a shot. In order to get rid of the Russians, Georgia is going to have to let South Ossetia go, but that would be better than having the Russians bifurcate their country under the guise of a "security zone".

3 votes

#3 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:20 AM EDT

I agree. This is a moment for solidarity between the Western countries. The European Union should cancel all energy cooperation with Russia, and reestablish full economic partnership with America and Canada. The whole free world should replace Russia as Europe's energy provider! This will bankrupt the Putin regime even before they manage to fully bankrupt Georgia!

3 votes

#3.1 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:22 PM EDT

Holy-Cow

I think Russia is getting tired of U.S. trying to tell the world what to do... they are a proud goverment they will leave under their own rules they are not gonna say ooppps george said to get out... better leave now this is a statement saying dont mess with me.. I'll leave when I feel like it.... russsia is standing up to the U.S. they dont want to start a war with us they just want to make a statement dont push me....

1 vote

#4 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:39 AM EDT

SuperSapien

George nuthin'... the WORLD told Russia to get out. That's precisely why this situation is getting scary.

4 votes

#4.1 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:25 PM EDT

Frankly I think Russia is giving the USA the finger by draggin their withdrawal from Georgia - its basically showing the World that we will pull out in our own good and ready time and there is nothing you can do about it...
KUDOS to Russia - the USA and its badgered countries to support us should keep our mouths shut and quite offering ULTIMATUMS which is only going to make things worse...

5 votes

#4.2 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:35 PM EDT

Holy-Cow

the WORLD told Russia to get out. That's precisely why this situation is getting scary........

the world or united states puppets..... trust me if Iam next door kicking the crap out of my neighbor and you this a$$ down the street told me to get out of his yard I might stop the fighting but i will give you hard look and take my time leaving I know I better not fight you but I will give you badddd looks

1 vote

#4.3 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:55 PM EDT

liquorupDeleted

kenfhjr

Ex US Navy done the overseas problem things, looks and sounds like an EU problem NOT a USA/BUSH problem.

2 votes

#5 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:20 AM EDT

Ron-374386

I don't believe Russia really wants to do this. They kind of got themselves in a box and are not real sure what to do without appearing to be weak. If I were a western diplomat, I would meet with my Russian counterpart and make it clear. Romania, part of NATO, the Ukraine, and Georgia are going to receive serious upgrades in their Black Sea Naval Capabilities, The former Sattelite Countries and Warsaw pack countries are going to receive serious upgrades in defense capabilities. Canada and the U.S. are going to double the amount of Coal, Oil, and Natural Gas we sell to Europe and the U.S. is going to develop it's Oil Shale reserves for that purpose. Huge investments are now going to be made in developing alternative sources of Energy like wind, solar, and defense. We already outspend the Russians by about 10 to 1 and it looks like it might be time to bankrupt them, again. The Russians really don't want to do this, but if they do. So be it.

2 votes

#6 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:38 PM EDT

Rdoudna

Yes I agree with your statement that Russia has boxed themselves in a bit. They need to appease their own hard-liners.

1 vote

#6.1 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:32 PM EDT

Blair-384776

"We already outspend the Russians by about 10 to 1 and it looks like it might be time to bankrupt them, again."

With that amount of spending, the devaluation of the dollar and the fact that we already have a deficit running in the trillions, who will we bankrupt first?

"going to double the amount of Coal, Oil, and Natural Gas we sell to Europe."

What Oil, and Natural Gas are we selling to Europe? We can't even produce enough for our own domestic use let alone sell to Europe.

"Huge investments are now going to be made in developing alternative sources of Energy"

Don't hold you breath.

#6.2 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:06 PM EDT

Reading the news this past week I can believe what is happening. On several occasions, Russia has dared the U.S. "to either partner with them, or with the bankrupt Saakashvili regime." Russia is also promising "to replace the pro-U.S. "corrupt regime" with a better, pro-Russian regime." In the absence of a positive response, "Russia will no longer partner with the U.S." This is Stalinism at its best! After World War II, in Poland, Russia made sure that Poland has a Communist regime. The only difference that, in lieu of Gen. Nogovitsin, she had sent Gen. Konstantin Rokossovski! But doing this in the XXI century in Georgia, where the Yalta agreement no longer applies, is outlandish and utterly provocative! It is like saying: "If you want to partner with us, NATO and U.S., you have to dismiss your bride (Georgia), and we will provide another bride of our liking for you! It is sick! Russia is playing with fire! Russia is attempting to hold a gun to the head of the free world ... or else! The future "partnership" she says, means Stalinism where we, Russians, decide who heads the Western governments!

3 votes

#7 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:05 PM EDT

Alex-2504

USA and NATO gave to Kosovo Albanians Serbian land and now Russia doing the same by same rules what NATO and USA made in march 6 2008. So Georgia will lose this parts of country because Russia will not listen nobody what to do. Russia told to NATO and USA that Serbia can't be split-ed and part of this country can't be given to separatist Albanians but they didn't listen and now Russia teach them lesson. War is not going to be because nobody wants war .

1 vote

#7.1 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:48 AM EDT

Red_Army

This is what we are facing and none of us want it to happen:

#8 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:31 PM EDT

milo64

Russia is trying regain its lost power, both politically and militarily. They have been waiting for an opportunity to jump back into the ring and assert themselves and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin is in the drivers seat. He knows the US is in no position to come to Georgia's aid militarily due to our commitments in Afghanistan and Irag. Al we have at this time is Strong statements . Even NATO countries our leery about what action they take with Russia because they are beholden to them for there oil and gas. While Russia's action were Disproportionate to Georgia's actions, Georgian President Saakashvili brought this on himself. He is an educated man he had to know this would happen.

2 votes

#9 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:42 PM EDT

I disagree - Georgian President Saakashvilli was a FOOL to attempt this coo... he thought or was LED TO BELIEVE that USA would offer military assistance... he fell right into the hands OF BUSH AND CHENEY AND COMPANY in that BUSH AND CHENEY wanted this confontation right before election times to make McCain look good and it isnt going to work...

Most american people have seen past this charade and its just more deaths on the hands of Bush and Cheney for political reasons... and obliquely McCain and republicans...

2 votes

#9.1 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:38 PM EDT

I am not sure how much this is about power. Power, yes, but what kind of power? There are two scenarios that I see, actually three. (1) Russia may be envying the "miracle" the West has done for China. Putin saw it at the Olympics, first hand; (2) Russia may want to follow Putin's longing to reconstitute the Soviet Union, as a sort of "vengeance"; and (3), Russia may want to partner with the European Union as the only European Superpower. Whichever of the three scenarios is true, there is much more to this than meets the eye. But one thing is clear: Russia is challenging the United States and the current world order.

1 vote

#9.2 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:27 AM EDT

liquorupDeleted

Blair-384776

"Technologically they are still behind the times."

I wouldn't bet the farm on that.

#9.4 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:31 PM EDT

liquorupDeleted

Blair-384776

Not my problem.

#9.6 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:22 PM EDT

ALTO&ALTO

Ok, so explain to us simple minded people....really - why are we getting involved? Why does our country constantly have to puff out its chest and demand that other countries do what we say?

3 votes

#10 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:54 PM EDT

Rdoudna

because we egged them on and there's a Presidential race.

1 vote

#10.1 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:30 PM EDT

liquorupDeleted

ZeroC

#11 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:54 PM EDT

Chris A.-327427

Ah, the silent treatment!

1 vote

#11.1 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:57 AM EDT

Rdoudna

Milo,
Very good and spot on.

#12 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:28 PM EDT

airborne508

Mr Prodigy, we don't have lasers to destroy tanks, we have very capable conventional anti-tank weapons that will easily destroy a Soviet tank. The Soviet military is no where near as capable as it once was. You will note there were some pretty old tanks (T-62s) being used in Georgia as well as very old BMP1s. They have not had the funds to build/maintain weapons or to pay for training. Recommend you Google Russian Navy and check the wikpedia or Jane's link that lists the number and type of warships the Soviets still operate. Hit Google Maps and check out their naval bases, you will note a lot of rusted ships tied up to piers, especially subs.

2 votes

#13 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:38 PM EDT

It doesnt matter how antiquated the russian army is, they still have 20,000 nukes that still work AND a will to fight for their country... that will is the most important factor that makes the Russian army still great and powerful.... to discount this and spout about how backwards their hardbware is, is plain foolish...

When it comes down to the final battle, i.e. soldiers against soldiers, its a whole different story wether you are killed with a new gun or an old one... its still a bullet...

4 votes

#13.1 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:41 PM EDT

I remember reading a quote from Stalin ca. 1950: " We know what war is, and we fear it. But the Americans fear it more."

2 votes

#13.2 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:05 PM EDT

neutral gear

Seems like the whole world is going insane and were leading the parade

2 votes

#14 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:52 PM EDT

They'll leave when the humiliation of Georgia is complete. Also, they're probably looking to see if they've overlooked any classified material.

In no small part, this mess reflects the personal animosity between Saakashvili and Putin. They despise each other - Misha, who's tall, refers to the shorter Putin as "Lilli-Putin",

#15 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:14 PM EDT

korluas

I was over this a week ago. Give 24 hours - anything left in the country is a target. And give me back my Humvees. Time outs do not work for kids or countries.

1 vote

#16 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:27 PM EDT

Anthony Adams

Sorry, but I think many of your comments are flat-out wrong and you do not see the big picture. First, the US has been slowly trying to not only embarrass Russia but has been doing the absolutely worst thing the Russians could ever imagine-- trying to encircle it. Bush has been an absolute fool trying to recruit former Soviet states into NATO allies-- missiles in Poland, NATO membership consideration to countries on the Russian border-- how long did everyone expect Russia to just sit back and take it? Why do you think the Russians kept control of Central Europe for all those years during the Cold War? It was a buffer between their homeland against the Western Allies because of their fear of war on their home front. In a way, I don't blame them, if Russia in its prime would have tried to recruit Canada, Mexico, and South American countries into the Warsaw Pact, we would have had a fit and responded the same as the Russians have done now. Look at our response during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Blame it all on Bush, he pushed and pushed until the other guy drew the line. As for Georgia, guess who started it-- the Georgians! By their attacking a province with a huge Russian ethnic population, why wouldn't Russia step in? We have invaded countries for much lesser reasons than that. So, Russia has entered Georgia, stopped the threat and is now trying to ensure that they do everything to reduce the amount of weapons the Georgians have- then, they'll leave. We would have done the same thing- only difference is, a lot more people would be dead. Things were going good and now the US has awakened the Sleeping Bear with its constant poking. Now, they will certainly be more aggressive and we have no one to blame but ourselves. Thanks! All this tough talk by the US is only going to make it worse... and why are we so quick to want to protect the instigator in all this, Georgia?
Lastly, I'm an American that loves his country and I have a Master's of Modern European History-- as they say, History has a way of repeating itself and as such, if you can't learn from it- you're doomed to repeat it!

4 votes

#17 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:31 PM EDT

Can't resist this cliche: history doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme.

Agree with your comments. The war was begun by Saakashvili's ego and stupidty.

3 votes

#17.1 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:46 PM EDT

Look at our response during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Well, it was Russian response really - the US set up missiles in Turkey in 1961, Russia set up missiles in Cuba in 1962. Now the US could be discovering Russian missiles in Syria and Venezuela... Arghh...

2 votes

#17.2 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:57 PM EDT

And Putin goes all out to beef up Iran's air defense. Then, Ms. Rice will complain, probably without recognizing her hypocrisy.

#17.3 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:10 PM EDT

I see little chance for Ms. Rice to stand up to people like Putin, Medvedev, and Zirinowskiy. These are mean people, not gentle middle age ladies! I take nothing from her diplomatic skills, but there are moments in history when a nation needs a Teddy Roosevelt. I wish this is solved peacefully. But it will take years for Russia to soften up. In the meantime, the Cold War II seems to be the only option. The world will again divide in blocks. There will be a stampede for rough materials. Europe will have to choose sides without ambiguity. What a mess Mr. Saakashwili got us into!

#17.4 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:38 AM EDT

liquorupDeleted

Some talk above about US super weapons, demonstrated by contractors for possible purchase by the military. The prototypes count for nothing until they're in serial production. And it's not so rare for contractors to fudge the conditions for a demonstration.

#18 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:43 PM EDT

Callie R.

Perhaps I don't have a complete understanding of the situation, but from what I know about it, it seems vaguely familiar. In 1938, Hitler invaded the Sudetenland, which had formerly been a part of Germany (unless I am mistaken). Hitler took over small pieces of land here and there until Lord Chamberlain stepped in. He allowed Hitler to keep the land he had taken in exchange for a promise not to take any more land. Chamberlain was sure that "we have achieved peace in our time." We all know how that turned out. I know there are differences between Russia and Nazi Germany, and I may not have a complete grasp of the situation, but there seem to be some eerie parallels. It will be interesting to see how Western leaders deal with this. Hopefully, history will not repeat itself. I'm not looking for a debate; I'd like to know more about the situation. Is my comparison valid, or am I missing a piece of the story?
-Callie R.

3 votes

#19 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:23 PM EDT

Please, read this article, one of only few offering the truthful view of the events.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26336743/

1 vote

#20 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:36 PM EDT

The Unknown Furry

jjgate: If they're on Newsvine, chances are they've read the article - it did come across via AP wire.

And, speaking of that article... I find describing it as offering the truthful view of events to be dubious at best. Remember, the Georgians were operating in South Ossetia, not Russia. Russia took things a step further than it needed to go and rolled straight through into Georgia... and on top of that, they still haven't left - even when they said they would by today. (It may be Thursday in the States, but it has been Friday in Georgia for a large portion of the day)

Let's hold off on judging either side until we see if the Russians have kept their standing armed forces in Georgian territory even further past the pullout deadline.

2 votes

#20.1 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:52 PM EDT